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quasar

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Jul 21 12 6:31 AM

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 Hi friends: The following thread is theology, pertaining to the Biblical description of God, as it differs from the doctrine of the Trinity.  It is not being posted to cause animosity in any way, but to seriously study the facts from the Scriptures, with an open mind.

It is hard to understand anyone who does not believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God, literally God the Son, according to Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. How could it be possible for the Holy Spirit to produce the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, without receiving the deity of God, as found in Mt.1:20 and in  Lk.1:32, 35?  To be empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit to all who receive Him as Lord? Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33, 3:16, 20:21-22, Acts 2:1-3, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13. To say nothing of performing 19 noteable miracles of healing the blind, the deaf, people with terminal illness and raising three from the dead? Do you think any ordinary human being could ever do that? 
 

The following is God's description of Himself, directly from the Scriptures.

Let me assure you that I am fully convinced that you all love the Lord! By the same token, you can be equally certain that I love Him too. With that having been said, the following Scriptural contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity is documented  in the following, to  seek and correct, the false teachings found in it, that were accepted into the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th century A.D.

1. it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit. 
 
2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45;  Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT [As well as the Father, according to the Scriptures, recorded in 6. below].


3. The fact is, God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles all quite well known to you all.


4. God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in another place, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isa.44:6. See also Ex.3:14, "I AM WHO I AM."


5. It can be clearly seen from the Scriptures, God is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been Scripturally established, what about the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, as well as who His Father is.

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to the following portion of it in verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].


"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]


when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]


I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]


when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]


rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]


Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]


That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3

Which is in complete harmony with Gen.1:26; 11:7; Jn.1:1-3; 17:5; Col.1:15-16 and Heb.1:2.
 
From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6.  [Please note:  See below as to when Jesus became the Son of God and literally God the Son]  The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ. In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created, comes from their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15.  [Jesus received His deity from His Father as recorded in 6. below].


To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began.


6.  When the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, she conceived what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened: 1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, documenting the Holy Spirit and the Father to be one person, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.  2. The term "Father" is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own, as was the case with God, when He produced His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, God who is the Holy Spirit and the Father are one and the same person.   


Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7, repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5.  3. Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, to whomever He choses.  Jesus said, whoever believes in Him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives/baptizes with to those who do, and promises eternal life. Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3.  See also Jn.10:27-29,  20:21-22, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.


At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], is YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., etc., etc., and is also the Father. We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.


7.  Which  brings us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, which many people fail to comprehend and understand - those remarks were all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with any kind of physical involvement. He said He and the Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21-22. What Jesus meant in 17:21-22, that all we believers become one with He and the Father, as He and the Father are. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him, receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3], becoming a born again Christian [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But we all retain our own physical, individual identities, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Persons!

Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28.  Jesus also stated: "MY FATHER [THE HOLY SPIRIT] LIVES IN ME, DOING HIS WORK," in Jn.14:10.  An exact case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, where Satan entered into Judas, who was then controlled by Satan, who is also spirit, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both Jesus and Judas retained their own individuality and identity.


8. The apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the [Holy] Spirit.

9.  The Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and a number of other places. Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9 and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12 and in other places.  All those who participate in the first resurrection, are to be made priests of God and of Jesus, recorded in Rev.20:6.  In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23.  The Holy Spirit is not mentioned there, because He is Almighty God.


10.  Pertaining to the literal description of God - where Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and in Isa.7:14. After that was fulfilled, it was repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9. It is also written that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body [Recorded in Heb.10:5] that received an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, as seen in 1 Cor.15:52-54, whose pre-incarnate Spirit was created, according to Pr.8:22-25]. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is as documented in 6. above:


ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD/AND LITERALLY, GOD THE SON [As in Isa.7:14, fulfilled in Mt.1:23].  THEREFORE OUR GODHEAD CONSISTS OF THE FATHER, WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRT AND THE SON, WHO IS JESUS CHRIST.


Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error?  Neither Jesus nor His apostles ever taught a Trinity!  It cannot be taught not supported from the Bible.  Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, by Jesus in Jn.4:24, by Paul in Rom.1:10; 2 Cor.3:17-18 and Col.1:15, and John in Jn.1:18 and in 1 Jn.4:12.  And that He is Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8.


With that having been established, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, as found in Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, [Literally, God the Son] also referred to as God by the Father, in Ps.45:6-7, Lord in 110:1 and Immanuel which means God with us, in Isa.7:14.  Repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9 when it was fulfilled. Obviously only two personages, not three. 

That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 is a verse that was tampered with by attempts to make the Holy Spirit and the Father, His title, two persons instead of the one that they are.  And 1 Jn.5:7 which is an insert, that does not appear in any of the early Greek manuscripts. Jesus would never have made such a statement, when He knew very well, His Father [which is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own], is the Holy Spirit.


Therefore, The description of God through the doctrine of the Trinity or any of the man made Creeds is quite impossible. Because Jesus and the Father are two separate personages [One by the One Spirit, as all we believers are, as found in 1 Cor.12:12-14]. The Father [The Holy Spirit] and the Son [Jesus, whom the Father calls God], are neither co-eternal nor co-equal, as recorded in Pr.8:22-36; Jn.14:28 and Jn.17:3. The three personages they describe as the Formula of the doctrine of the Trinity, consists of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; which is in fact, identifying the Holy Spirit and the Father as two personages, when they are but one, according to the documented Scriptures addressed above.




Quasar

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servant

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#1 [url]

Jul 24 12 12:25 PM

If you want to move this to another place that's ok by me. Thought it fit here. It's something from another forum..

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Well, it is clear that Jesus has a God and Father.

1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2Pe_1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Jn_1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

If the God of Jesus is not the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then the whole Christian premise is null and void.

  Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

There is only one true God. Jesus even said so. The question is then, how can God share His glory with another. He doesn't. He shows His glory through His creation so they will glorify Him above all, not the creation He works through.

Here is a passage where Jesus is praying, or talking with His God, His Father, who worked through him for the salvation of souls. Salvation comes by God through Jesus. There is no other way. If Jesus is God, then God Himself died on the cross, and Jesus was talking to himself. Who was the voice heard from heaven then that said "This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased"?

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Salvation comes from God through Jesus. We are saved in order to know the only true God. We are redeemed back to God, not back to Jesus.

Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

God was glorified by Jesus. He finished the work that God His Father gave to him to accomplish. Jesus was glorified by God before the world was. He was with God...not God Himself.

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

God expects to be glorified above all others. Jesus glorified Him above all others. Jesus is glorified in us, but that does not make us Jesus does it? God is glorified in Jesus (and in us as well if we are in Christ), but that does not make Jesus God the Father, and of course it does not make us God the Father either.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

We are made one with God and His Christ by the Holy Spirit. That does not mean that Christ is God above all gods! That means that we are included in the loop of the Holy Spirit just as Christ is filled with the Holy Spirit from the Father.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

What is the reason that Jesus is praying that they all may be one as he and his Father are one? So the world may believe that God sent Jesus, and believe the glory that the Father gave Jesus he has also given them. Does that mean then, according to the oneness doctrine, that if Jesus and the Father are one and the same person, that we are also some kind of incarnate of Jesus (and thus God)? That would be blasphemy would it not?

The Father loved Jesus (the Word of God) before the foundation of the world. Jesus knew Him before the foundation of the world. God sent Jesus, not His own self to die on a cross.

Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

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#2 [url]

Jul 25 12 1:59 AM

Its all quite obvious isn't it, but for some reason it seems to be a stumbling block for so many.

To a large extent there also seems to be a lot of peer pressure involved and the temptation of "if you want to be one of us you have to go along with the lie"

For some reason people seem to be into reading all the commentaries about the Bible but never seem to read the Bible itself. Just a quick read through the New Testament would make all the difference in bringing the oneness ideology to an end but it just drags on and on because the crowd says so.

Blessings in the name of my Lord Jesus Christ who came in the flesh and now sits at the right hand of our God on high. A confession of faith that the modern Evangelical movement can no longer make!

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servant

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#3 [url]

Jul 25 12 9:41 AM

The other thing I've noticed in the debates, is none of my questions are ever answered, but they demand all theirs to be answered! Then when they are answered and proven...4 posts later they are saying the question was not answered.

When I first started to read the Bible diligently in the early 90's, I confess that the commentaries were a large part of what I read at the time because I simply could not understand what was being said. For a person who is just starting to read the Bible, those comments can be a good thing. But at some point in time, a person really should know and grow enough to start taking what is said and comparing scripture to scripture weeding out anything that does not line up with what is said in the Bible. A new Christian should be dealt with more leinency than someone who supposedly has been reading it for 20 or 30 years.

But it seems a whole lot of teachers or pastors follow each other around instead of taking what the text actually says. Leaving out a whole lot of passages that don't line up with their doctrine. And as far as I can see, they do not have a solid answer or explaination of.

Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

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squishia

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Jul 25 12 5:19 PM

I agree with Servant on this one, I've noticed some of the basic principles are being left out of most pastors agenda, it's like they don't even read the bible or the commentaries.

I personally like learning from the commentaries, it gives me a perceptive and interpretation that I may have not considered before.

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quasar

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Jul 25 12 8:16 PM

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If people prefer reading commentaries to that of learning to study the Bible, many personal opinions are going to color what you begin to learn, whether they line up with Biblical teachings or not, and the beginner will fail to learn the intended interpretation of the Scriptures.  There is no substitute for learning what the Bible teaches than from the Bible itself.

Years ago when there was basically only one authorized English translation of the Bible available to us, the old archaic 1,611 A.D. KJV, it was very difficult to understand indeed.  In our present day society there are a number of very good easy to understand translations that make Bible study understandable and a pleasure to study than it used to be.  



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quasar

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#6 [url]

Aug 28 13 7:45 AM



God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12; Ps.51:11; 106:33; 139:7 and 143:10  NIV-All.
 
God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, God is the Holy Spirit.
 
The origin of the firstborn over all creation:

The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit who later became the human Jesus is recorded as His "autobiography," written by Solomon, as he was carried along by the Holy Spirit, in Pr.8:22-36, "The Lord brought me forth before the world began...," confirmed in Col.1:15, the firstborn over all creation.

According to the above, the Scriptures state, God is the Holy Spirit and in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:35 and Heb.10:5, reveal Him to the the Father as well.  The Word did not become the Son of God/God the Son until then.  

The human Son of God/God the Son, Jesus, did not exist in Old Testament times, confirming Isa.43:10; Isa.44:6 and Isa.45:5, in addition to Jn.1:1-3 and 14; Jn.17:5; Col.1:15-16; Heb.1:2; Gen.1:26 and Gen.11:7. 

The term Father is the very same title all men receive when they produce children of their own, as the Holy Spirit did when He produced Jesus by the virgin Mary.  Fulfilling His prophecies of 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and Ps.2:7.
 
The fact God, the Holy Spirit, produced the human Jesus by the virgin Mary, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35, there is no option to the divinity of Jesus as the Son of God/God the Son.  Confirmed in Ps.45:6-7; Ps.110:1 and Isa.7:14.  Whom God created the Universe by, according to Heb.1:2 as well as Jn.1:3 and Col.1:16.   
 
 
Quasar


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