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quasar

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Jun 16 12 9:01 AM

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Old earth age seen from the light travel time from the stars
 
Light-Travel Time: Evidence for an old earth:

One of the simplest arguments for an earth much older than a few thousand years comes from starlight. Light travels outward from its source at a large but finite rate - 186,000 miles per second, or about 6 trillion miles per year. In fact, astronomers define a distance unit, the light-year, as how far light travels in one year. 

THE ARGUMENT

If the earth were only a few thousand years old, we would expect to see no objects more distant than a few thousand light-years away. But, as a matter of fact, we do see objects much further away than this. Most of the stars in our Milky Way galaxy are further, up to nearly 100,000 light-years away. The nearest large galaxy beyond our Milky Way is the Andromeda Galaxy, about 2 million light-years distant. The furthest galaxies we see are several billion light-years from us. And the most distant objects which we can observe, called quasars, range up to 10 billion light-years away (Pasachoff, 1989, chs 5 & 15). Thus the universe is most naturally understood to be greater than 10 billion years old.

This argument depends on several assumptions which we need to consider in order to have some feeling for how compelling the argument is. There are three such assumptions we should consider. Each is a very natural assumption, but it is possible that one or more of these is mistaken. Let us look at each in turn.


See the following to access the complete article: http://www.ibri.org/Tracts/lttmetct.htm

Equating the above factors to the Bible, there is credence to an unspecified amount of time between Gen.1:1-2 and verse 3 NIV: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
 
Unspecified time between verses 1 and 2 - and there is nothing more found in the following six day creation narrative revealing when the creation of the heavens and earth took place in verses 1-2 - [10 million years? 4 billion years? What difference does it make since God created it all, regardless of the time involved ? - and:

"God said, " let there be light"....day one of Gen.1:3. That is not all, the sun, moon and stars did not appear until on day 4: "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night and let them serve as signs to mark the seasons and days and years...'"
 
From the above Scriptures it appears as though the earth was created before the sun, moon and the stars. Or are we unable to see the recovery from major cataclysmic events, with a restoration of the original , by clearing away the results of dense smoke from meteor strikes, enormous volcanic action and global flooding? The term "created" or "create" is not seen after Gen.1:1 again until the 5th and 6th days, when God created the fish and fowl on day 5 and the animals and Adam on the 6th day.

More evidence is found in Pr.8:23-24 NIV: "I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;" But you will recall in Gen.1:2, the earth was standing in the first global flood [Not the second flood of Noah]. Confirmed by David in Ps.24:2 and Peter in 2 Pet.3:5.

Therefore the evidence is strong that we live on a very old earth that could not possible be only 6,000 years old.

See the following:  http://www.rogerswebsite.com/articles/Young-Earth-v-Old-Earth.pdf


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servant

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Jun 18 12 4:12 AM

I have often wondered about young earth and old earth theories. Of course, God could create everything in only 6 24hr periods of time, but it seems out of character for Him. There are many times in the
scriptures where it states something in one verse, and the next verse takes along time to fulfill. The physical evidence has to jive with what is written in the Bible, if it doesn't then it is our interpretations
and understanding that is off. There are alot of holes in the young earth theory, but at least those who teach that are trusting the Lord more than the secular science teachers. But it is a fact that God
works through His creation. He set up natural laws that take time to accomplish. Just like watering a wilted plant, it takes awhile before the results are seen. Usually it surprises you when in a day it
looks quite different than before. But the results were not immediate. It is the same principle with creation. God set the foundational things, put them into motion, and then allowed them to progress. 

In the last few years, I've actually changed my view from young to old earth because of a well written article about creation from a solid bible teacher. Can't remember where it is now though.

As far as two world wide floods, that may be true. The thing is, there is so much deception surrounding what went on before our time, that someone could get sidetracked and led down the wrong path
with the study of it. All kinds of contradictory evidence out there from the Christian perspective to Satanism. The simple fact is, is there just isn't enough information in the Bible, that I've seen, to draw
anything other than speculation. So, for me, it goes under the category of "unknown". I do suspect though, that Revelation and Genesis are linked closer than many realize. Especially the parts where
Satan gets thrown out of heaven, and God creates a new heaven and earth. IMO, that ties into the generations of heaven and earth.

Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,






Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

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quasar

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Jun 18 12 5:15 AM

[SCROLL TO THE TOP]

If you have the time to fully review:  http://www.rogerswebsite.com/articles/Young-Earth-v-Old-Earth.pdf  it will be a real eye opener as to the original contents of the creation.  As such, the Bible fully supports an old age earth from the very outset.  Pr.8:22-36 is a short version of the creation and when coupled with Gen.1:2, it reveals first of all, an earth without oceans.  Then flooded, from which God restored it for the first four days and finished day five by creating the fish and fowl and day six, creating the animals and Adam.  Confirmed in Ps.24:2 and 2 Pet.3:5 the earth was globally flooded when God began the six day creation narrative, which was the first flood, and Noah's flood in Gen.7, 1,656 years later.


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kalford

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Apr 10 13 11:09 AM




In his book, A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking says that the "BIG BANG does not place limits on if GOD created this Universe but it does place limits on 'WHEN' He carried out His work".

Genesis 1:2 tells us that "the earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters". 

Water could not have been held in place unless there was GRAVITY to hold it there. See where I am going?

Then God spoke the words, 'Let there be light'. 


So, lets assume that GRAVITY held together what Stephen Hawking calls the "Singularity". The Singularity explodes creating light...streaking out and expanding at 186,000 miles per second. Meanwhile, on the two days after God focuses on the only planet in this Universe that He chooses to create life. 

So Gravity and Light were created on Day 1. Wow! what an idea...The idea of a 'young earth' or an 'old earth' is subject to one of the Laws of Physics God created...The General Theory of Relativity. The creation of this Universe is subject to who is observing it. Am I right with this? 


We know God's creation of this Universe continues. The Hubble Space telescope has helped us see to the far reaches of this Universe to see the RED SHIFT. Earth exists in an expanding Universe. 

When I look at the light of stars in the night sky I am looking into the past. That is obvious. 

BUT, we cannot see, according to Hawking backward in time past the Singularity. 

We forget that our methods of Carbon Dating are Theories. Come on the Creationists have done the math...

I believe God created man and woman. He was existing during what we call the NEOLITHIC period...

Well, I'm sure there are many holes in what I've said. But Science still does not provide a unified 'theory of everything'. Modern Science is self-perpetuating and what was once called theory is now taught as fact. 

I'd love to discuss this further and appreciate your feedback. You are it!  




Any other writers out there?

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kalford

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Apr 10 13 11:17 AM

In other words, the observation of light from the stars at night depends on when the light was observed AND when it started its journey toward the observer. 

Also, we know that the speed of light can and is influenced by objects in it's way, therefore the speed at which light travels is refracted. 

Yes or No? 

Any other writers out there?

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quasar

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Apr 10 13 7:47 PM

Back again, kalford,

Re the creation of gravity and light in connection with Stephen Hawking's theory he calls "singularity:"  I submit the brief description, as follows:
 
The destiny of all matter that falls into a black hole is to get crushed to a point of zero volume and infinite density—a singularity. General relativity also implies that our expanding universe began from a singularity
 
A singularity is a region of space-time in which gravitational forces are so strong that even general relativity, the well-proven gravitational theory of Einstein, and the best theory we have for describing the structure of the universe, breaks down there. A singularity marks a point where the curvature of space-time is infinite, or, in other words, it possesses zero volume and infinite density. General relativity demands that singularities arise under two circumstances. First, a singularity must form during the creation of a black hole. When a very massive star reaches the end of its life, its core, which was previously held up by the pressure of the nuclear fusion that was taking place, collapses and all the matter in the core gets crushed out of existence at the singularity. Second, general relativity shows that under certain reasonable assumptions, an expanding universe like ours must have begun as a singularity.
 
From:  http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/strange/html/singular.html
 
 
The first point I would like to comment on, is that there is a definite sparation gap between Gen.1:1 amd 2.  Meaning the heavens and earth God created did not occur on day one, nor any of the other five days for that matter.  As we find recorded in Proverbs 8:22-36, the ancient days of the creation together with the origin of Jesus, the firstborn over all creation, in Col.1:15.  From the following NIV version:

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3.

From the above, it is recorded that the earth stood at one time without oceans or water of any kind.  Yet, in Gen.1:2, it was standing in a global flood.  Not the one of Noah's time that did not occur until 1,656 years later.  According to Ps.24:2 and Pet.3:5-6, God "restored" the earth by water, out of water, which at that time He had destroyed the world of that time - which reveals a previous age.

The second point I would like to make pertains to the light God brought forth in day one:  IMO, that light was the glory of  God Himself, as He is light, as recorded in 1 Jn.1:5, in which there is no darkness as well as in Rev.21:23, where in the new heaven and earth, the new city of Jerusalem will not need the sun, because the glory of God gives it His light.

The third point, in connection with gravity, that had to have taken place when the universe was created, together with the earth, at the same time.  The earth was not created separately from the rest of the universe.  See Heb.1:2 for example.  If singularity fits into this equation, it would have had to have taken place when the universe was created.  But the theory really doesn't equate, for the simple reason it is expanding, not contracting.  In addition, the black hole density is said to be such, even light does not appear.  I do not think we are living in a black hole environment or we would not be able to see the any of the heavenly bodies at all, let alone the sun and the moon.

You might be interested in the following:

 http://www.rogerswebsite.com/articles/Young-Earth-v-Old-Earth.pdf

Quasar 

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kalford

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Apr 11 13 5:45 AM

Hello again,

First of all I would like you to know I'm in way over my 'pay grade'!  

Have you read Henry M. Morris' The Genesis Record, A Scientific and Devotional Commentary on the Book of Beginnings, Baker Book House, 1976?

The specific issue is the so called 'gap' between vs. 1 and vs. 2 of Chapter One, Genesis. Morris' postulates the conjunction 'AND' connects vs 1 and vs 2 showing sequential actions. He discusses the various Hebrew translations translations, i.e. "When God began to create...", etc. But because of how the "text" reads vs 1 and vs 2 are connected in sequential actions via declarative statements. He is very clear on the matter. 

Even though I believe in a "young UNIVERSE" theory I have encountered some problems. 

If we can measure the time-space continuum of THIS UNIVERSE all the way back to the Singularity and the resulting Big Bang, the evidence shows our Universe is billions of years old. Hawking states we cannot measure time back...past the Singularity because all the Laws of Physics break down. 

OFF SUBJECT:  Sometimes I think we as humans believe this Natural Universe is all there is and that God somehow exists here, in our space-time continuum. But as believers we cannot think as C.S. Lewis says, "we are the whole show". The natural laws that our Creator set in motion do not apply in the super-natural realms, RE. C.S. Lewis' book MIRACLES.

For example, I believe that we are created beings living in a space-time continuum governed by natural laws that do not change unless the Creator of that continuum intervenes to change something. But then again our Creator is all knowing so he has already arranged for any changes, i.e. Planetary motions, asteroid trajectories, "signs and wonders in the heavens", etc.    

I find it easier to believe that there are many other Universes...super-natural universes than the DAY-AGE theories. 

SUMMARY: For the time being I'm sticking with the Young Earth theory and I will do some more reading on the topic as you suggested. 

I would appreciate any comments that can help me out with the time measurement issue and the problems with Radio-Active Carbon Dating. 

I like this forum. I've shotgunned a lot of ideas and I apologize but I am very sincere and not trying to "prove" any point. The Holy Spirit takes care of concepts that are spiritual. 

Any other writers out there?

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quasar

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Apr 13 13 5:14 AM

Hi kalford,

That this is "beyond your 'pay scale,'" is not a problem.  Everyone is not given the gift of prophecy/eschatology, but of a wide selection of other gifts.

No, I haven't read Henry M. Morris' The Genesis Record, A Scientific and Devotional Commentary on the Book of Beginnings, Baker Book House, 1976.  It sounds like it would be an interesting read.

My views as to the age of the universe is that it is very old from a preponderance of evidence that cannot be swept under the rug.  Which has nothing at all to do with the fact that God created it all, no matter how old it is.  The theory is that there have been ages before the one we now live in.  Review the following for the evidence and theology in a number of places:

What does the Bible provide clues for an old Universe/earth age?

1. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," which is nowhere found in the six day restoration/creation narrative.  A gap of time is seen between verses 1 and 2 from God creating the heavens and the earth and the formless, darkness over the deep {waters].  

2.. The origin of the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION as posted in my previous post, from Proverbs 8:22-36 and Col.1:15 NIV.  Which reveals the six day creation scenario, with the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became the human Jesus, being the CRAFTSMAN at His side, in vs 30.  Brought forth BEFORE there were any oceans of water on earth.  Yet, the earth was standing in a global flood that God restored/created our present age scenario, recorded in Gen.1:2; Ps.24:2 and 2 Pet.3:5.  Confirmed in Jn.1-1-2 and Jn.17:5.    

3. Peter wrote in 2 Pet.3:5-6 NIV: "But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word, the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.  By these waters also THE WORLD OF THAT TIME [The waters the Spirit of God hovered over in Gen.1:2 - Not Noah's flood]!

From other sources:

4. http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2010/04/10/was-there-life-before-adam/#post9    

5. http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2010/04/09/an-old-earth-agethe-gap-theory/#post0

6. http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2010/04/06/dinosaurs-and-the-bible/#post0

7. http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2012/10/16/beyond-the-gap-theory-2/

8. http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2012/10/15/evidence-for-a-gaap-of-tie-between-gen11-and-gen13/#post0 

9. http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2012/08/16/science-and-the-bible/#post0

10. http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2011/06/27/the-pre-adamite-world-and-origin-of-satan-aka-luci-2/#post1


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