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The following thread is theology, pertaining to the Biblical description of God, as it differs from the doctrine of the Trinity. It is not being posted to cause animosity between members in any way, but to seriously study the facts from the Scriptures, with an open mind. Any differences of issues will be responded to when and as posted.It is hard to understand anyone who does not believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God and literally, God the Son, according to Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. How could it be possible for the Holy Spirit to produce the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, without receiving the deity of God, as found in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35? To be empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit to all who receive Him as Lord? Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33, 3:16, 20:21-22, Acts 2:1-3, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13. To say nothing of performing 19 noteable miracles of healing the blind, the deaf, people with terminal illness and raising three from the dead? Do you think any ordinary human being could ever do that?
The following is God's description of Himself, directly from the Scriptures.
Let me assure you that I am fully convinced that you all love the Lord! By the same token, you can be equally certain that I love Him too. With that having been said, the following Scriptural contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity is documented in the following, to seek and correct, the false teachings found in it, that were accepted into the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th century A.D.
1. it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit.
2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. [As well as the Father, according to the Scriptures, recorded in 6. below].
3. The fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles all quite well known to you all.
4.God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."
5. It can be clearly seen from the Scriptures, God is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been Scripturally established, what about the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, as well as the identity of His Father ?
Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].
"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,
before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]
I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]
when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]
rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]
Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and
receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]
That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3
From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. [Please note: See below as to when Jesus did become the Son of God and literally God the Son] The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, who is the Father and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created, in their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15. [Jesus received His deity from His Father as recorded in 6. below].
To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth, as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began.
6. When the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, she conceived in what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened:
A. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, as documented in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.
B. The term "Father" is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own, as was the case when God, who is the Holy Spirit produced His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, God who is the Holy Spirit and the Father are one and the same person. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7, repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5.
C. Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, confirming Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. Jesus said, whoever believes in Him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives/baptizes with, to those who do, and promises eternal life in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.10:27-29, 20:21-22, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.
At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., is also the Father. We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.
7. Bringing us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, that many people fail to comprehend and understand - all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with physical aspects in any way. Jesus said He and His Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21-22. In which He meant, as in 17:21-22, that all of us who belong to Him become one, with He and the Father, as He and the Father are one with each other. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him. Receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3], and become a born again Christian [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But we all retain our own physical, individual identities, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Persons!
Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28 [NIV]. Jesus also stated: "MY FATHER [THE HOLY SPIRIT] LIVES IN ME, DOING HIS WORK," in Jn.14:10. A similar case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, when Satan entered into Judas, whom he then controlled by, who is also spirit, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both Jesus and Judas retained their own individuality and identity.
8. The apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the Holy Spirit.
9. The Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and a number of other places. Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9 and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12, as well as in other places. All those who participate in the first resurrection, are to be made priests of God and of Jesus, recorded in Rev.20:6. In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23. Neither the terms Holy Spirit or Father are mentioned there, but rather Almighty God, who is the Holy Spirit, together with the Lamb, who is Jesus.
10. Pertaining to the literal description of God - Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7, [and Lord in] Ps.110:1 and "God is with us," in Isa.7:14. After they were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9. In Col.1:15, Jesus is called the image of the invisible God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body [According to Lk.2:6-7; Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5], later changed to an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, as seen in 1 Cor.15:44,52-54, whose pre-incarnate Spirit was created, according to Pr.8:22-25]. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is the following: [As documented in 6. above]
11. ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD/AND LITERALLY, GOD THE SON [As in Isa.7:14, fulfilled in Mt.1:23]. THEREFORE OUR GODHEAD CONSISTS OF THE FATHER, WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRT AND THE SON, WHO IS JESUS CHRIST.
12. Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error? Neither Jesus nor His apostles ever taught a Trinity! It cannot be taught nor supported from the Bible. Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, by Jesus in Jn.4:24, by Paul in Rom.1:10; 2 Cor.3:17-18 and Col.1:15, and John in Jn.1:18 and in 1 Jn.4:12. And that He is Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. With that having been Scripturally established, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, as found in Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, [Literally, God the Son] also referred to as God by the Father, in Ps.45:6-7, Lord in 110:1 and Immanuel which means "God with us," in Isa.7:14. Repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9 when it was fulfilled. Obviously only two personages, not three. That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 can clearly be seen as having been was altered by attempts to make the Holy Spirit and the Father, His title, two persons instead of the one that they are. [And 1 Jn.5:7 which is an insert, that does not appear in any of the early Greek manuscripts]. Jesus would never have made such a statement, when He knew very well, His Father [which is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own], is the Holy Spirit.
13. mTherefore, The description of God through the doctrine of the Trinity or any of the man made Creeds is quite impossible. Because Jesus and the Father are two separate personages [One by the One Spirit, as all we believers are, as found in Jn.17:21-22 and 1 Cor.12:12-14]. The Father [The Holy Spirit] and the Son [Jesus, whom the Father calls God], are neither co-eternal nor co-equal, as recorded in Pr.8:22-36; Jn.14:28 and Jn.17:3. The three personages described as the Formula for the doctrine of the Trinity, consists of the "Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit;" which is, in fact, identifying the Holy Spirit and the Father as two personages, when they are but one, according to the documented Scriptures addressed above. In addition to the Father and the Son being two entirely separate individuals.
Last Edited By: quasar Aug 28 16 6:03 AM. Edited 3 times