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servant

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Dec 5 09 11:04 AM

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Who/What is God and origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus by Quasar

It is necessary to first properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as [the] Spirit.

In the second place, God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45 and in 1 Pet.1:15-16, with no option to the Scriptural fact, He is the HOLY SPIRIT.

In the third place, the fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as other names and titles including "Father," seen for Him more than any of the others in the Scriptures.

In the fourth place, God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in another place, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isa.44:6. See also Ex.3:14, "I AM WHO I AM."

In the fifth place, it can clearly be seen from the above Scriptures - He is indeed the Holy Spirit.[/b] With that having been determined, what about Jesus. Along with misconceptions of who the Holy Spirit is - the most important of all, is the Scriptural description of Jesus.


The origin of the Pre-Incarnate Spirit of Jesus

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the Wisdom of God, I refer specifically to the following portion of it in verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ, the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 31-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

See also Heb.10:5.

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3


From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. The same passage of Scripture also reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created comes from the KJV, in their translation of Pr.8:22, where it reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.

To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began.

The Holy Spirit becomes the Father

When the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary [In Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35], she conceived what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God Several things happened then: 1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5. 2. The incarnate Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose. 3. Jesus said, whover believes in him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives/baptizes those who do, and promises eternal life. Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.20:21-22 and 1 Jn.4:13.

Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring, IMO, that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, would He not? How could the incarnate Jesus be anything else but God, when God is His Father? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God/Lord in Ps.45:6-7; IIO:1 and in Isa.7:14. After that was fulfilled, it was repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9. It is also written that Jesus is the image of the living God. Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body that received an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, as in 1 Cor.15:52-54, whose pre-incarnate Spirit was created. Though there is no question as to His deity, by the very testimony of God Himself, the proper description of God is:

ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD/GOD THE SON [As in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 AND Isa.7:14 and fulfilled in Mt.1:23 AND IN HEB.1:8-9].

At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God The Holy Spirit], is YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., etc., etc., and is now also the Father, which is only a title, as all of us fathers are who have children. We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.

Jesus said His Father [The Holy Spirit] lived in Him, in Jn.14:10, leading us to the following: As to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and His Father being one, which many people fail to comprehend and understand - meaning, they are one spiritually - and have nothing whatever to do with them being one and each the same person. He said He and the Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21. What Jesus meant in 17:21-22, that all we believers become one with He and the Father, as He and the Father are. When thinking about that carefully, it can be understood that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, And the Father] through belief in Him, receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33], becoming a born again believer [Spiritually]through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But it must be understood that we all retain our own physical, individual identities, personage, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Personages!

The apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the [Holy] Spirit.

Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus, when He testified about it in Jn.14:10-11 as well as when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28. An exact case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, where Satan enters into Judas, who is then controlled by [the spirit who is] Satan], in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both He and Judas retained their own spirits and individuality.

Blessings,

Quasar

Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

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servant

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Dec 5 09 11:06 AM

This study is something that I have been thinking about for the last several months. I have to say that I have come to many of the conclusions you have. There are a couple of thoughts I had after reading your teaching:

1. The Father and Son have to be two separate beings because

1Pe 3:22  Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

It says that Jesus is at the right hand of God, which means that there are two separate places. Two separate thrones. Two separate entities. With Christ given the power of the Godhead, but with limited knowledge..

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

If Jesus was God, then he would have said so right here, and just said that he was not going to tell them! But he didn't, he referred to the Father as all knowing.


2. I have been searching for the scripture that alludes to the fact that God holds everything together like in a form of maintenance but have yet to find the exact one I am thinking of..but if/when I find it, I'll post it. I believe that this is talking about the Holy Spirit, and I also believe that the Father and the Holy Spirit are essentially one in the same, just different forms. One we can relate to physically, and one we relate to spiritually if that makes sense.

3. It seems as if there is a circular pattern. The Father in the Son, the Son in us, the Father in us. All "tied" together for a lack of better word by the Holy Spirit.

Please forgive my lack of scripture references. I have studied a little bit, but certainly not as much as needed to get it down pat with all scripture proofs. But those are my thoughts. 

Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

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quasar

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Dec 6 09 5:41 AM

Greetings servant:

The Scriptures clearly reveal who and what God is in addition to the origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus.

1.  In Jn.4:24, Jesus states that God is Spirit.  In 2 Cor.3:17-18, Paul confirms it.  In Jn.1:18, the apostle John states that no one has ever seen God, and repeats in in 1 Jn.4:12.  The apostle Paul makes the same observation in Col.1:15.

2.  That our God is Spirit is also documented as being Holy, in Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16, among other places. 

3.  God, who is the Holy Spirit, testified of Himself as being the one and only God, in Isa.43:10 and 44:6, confirmed by Jesus in Jn.17:3, that His Father was the only true God.

4.  As seen in all three of the above, God is the one and only Holy Spirit, in which there can be no option to the fact that He is also the Father of the incarnate Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, as recorded in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.

The term Father, is nothing more than the very same title all men have who produce children of their own.  Which is the basic error of trinitarianism, who attempt to make the term Father, one of their three "personages" making up but a single God.

5.  The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus is documented in Pr.8:22-36, the WHO in the personification of the wisdom of God, as confirmed in 1 Cor.1:24 and in Col.2:2-3.  Who was "possessed," [KJV] created, [NIV] according to the Hebrew term found in Gen.14:19 and 22 in the KJV and literally "created" in the NIV and so annotated in the NASB.

The pre-incarnate spirit who later became the human Jesus, was brought forth before the foundation of the world, the firstborn over all creation, in Col.1:15.  He was the "craftsman" at God's side during the creation according to Pr.8:30, NIV.

6.  The Spirit of god called His Son God, or Lord, in Ps.45:6-7 and in 110:1.  The very fact God, who is the Holy Spirit begat Jesus by the virgin Mary, in the very same way men produce children of their own, confirms the very deity of the human Jesus, as not only the Son of God, but also God the Son.

Hope this sheds some of the Scriptural light on how God identifies Himself.

Your bro in Christ,

Quasar


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